TTC website issues thread

[Sharlikran]

Cyxui created a site that is used by tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of users for over 7 years. Thousands of users a day. How many people have thanked him?

Some players are members of smaller guilds in small out of the way locations. Guilds that aren't in major cities or guilds in Outlaws Refuges. These people depend on visitors using TTC to find what they are selling.

Make a TTC website and see how you will finance it with the traffic that it gets for people searching for items to purchase. Then you can have an opinion.

I worked on TES5Edit with Zilav and Hlp back in 2012 and brought a tool that was directly responsible other then the fact mod authors had to use it that directly impacted the modding community for the last decade. I can empathize with doing thankless work for the benefit of others not once asking for anything in return.

Besides that he may find a way to fund the site differently. He may also have others help him host the search capabilities on another site. Which could also have adds and they may have a better way to still show adds even with adblocker. Now that the author has asked for help there are people trying to come up with alternatives to help him.

People trying to resolve the issue, that is constructive and has a meaningful purpose.

[SainguinLibras]

Originally Posted by Sharlikran Cyxui created a site that is used by tens of thousands of users for over 7 years. Thousands of user a day. How many people have thanked him? Some players are members of smaller guilds in small out of the way locations. Guilds that aren't in major cities or guilds in Outlaws Refuges. These people depend on visitors using TTC to find what they are selling. Make a TTC website and see how you will finance it with the traffic that it gets for people searching for items to purchase. Then you can have an opinion. I worked on TES5Edit with Zilav and Hlp back in 2012 and brought a tool that was directly responsible other then the fact mod authors had to use it that directly impacted the modding community for the last decade. I can empathize with doing thankless work for the benefit of others not once asking for anything in return. Besides that he may find a way to fund the site differently. He may also have others help him host the search capabilities on another site. Which could also have adds and they may have a better way to still show adds even with adblocker. Now that the author has asked for help there are people trying to come up with alternatives to help him. People trying to resolve the issue. That is constructive and has a meaningful purpose.

Ok but why does any of that give him the right to pull shady practices like forced ads and data selling?

I appreciate the free work. I appreciate everything a lot of you have done for the community.

Even if I disagree with you strongly right now Sharlikran, you're absolutely prolific in the ESO community and you've done some great work.

Regardless, none of you are free from criticism.

I'm not the only person who disagrees very strongly with what is going with the TTC website. I'm just the only person who managed to find this thread.

And I have given constructive feedback, the ESOUI moderators deleted it.

I literally asked him to create a Patreon. There's no way the community wouldn't rally around that.

But it wasn't even a option and cyx won't even respond to it.

So it's kind of hard to give him any benefit of the doubt in this situation.

[cyxui]

Originally Posted by SainguinLibras Ok but why does any of that give him the right to pull shady practices like forced ads and data selling? I appreciate the free work. I appreciate everything a lot of you have done for the community. Even if I disagree with you strongly right now Sharlikran, you're absolutely prolific in the ESO community and you've done some great work. Regardless, none of you are free from criticism. I'm not the only person who disagrees very strongly with what is going with the TTC website. I'm just the only person who managed to find this thread. And I have given constructive feedback, the ESOUI moderators deleted it. I literally asked him to create a Patreon. There's no way the community wouldn't rally around that. But it wasn't even a option and cyx won't even respond to it. So it's kind of hard to give him any benefit of the doubt in this situation.

I can't reply to every single post. But I can address couple issues you mentioned.

1. You dont need to turn off your anti-virus. However some antivirus providers have ad block module built in. For example Malwarebytes has something called Browser Guard and kaspersky has a module called internet security. Those modules blocks ads and needs to be either turned off or whitelist TTC.

My privilege inside your browser is very limited. I can't even reliably tell which browser you are using so let alone checking what you have installed on your PC. All I am able to check is whether ads are being loaded or not.

2. I failed to see why Patreon would work when Paypal donation button failed miserably hard.

If we are being realistic here we can look at how many sites in the history have managed to survive purely on donations. Only one website comes in mind: Wikipedia. And it is in fact one and the only one that ever came close.

Even for a site as famous as Wikipedia this is what they wrote on their donation page

"We're a non-profit that depends on donations to stay online and thriving, but 98% of our readers don't give; they simply look the other way. If everyone who reads Wikipedia gave just a little, we could keep Wikipedia thriving for years to come. The price of a cup of coffee is all we ask."

Public donation was actually not the only source of income for Wikipedia. Company sponsorship, federal funds, and services are playing big parts.

So back to the question: was there any website that survived solely on donations? Sadly none.

3. So what are the options for publishers nowadays with the rise of ad blockers? Well not many.
a) bite the bullet and hope the revenue can sustain
b) requires paid membership
c) other revenue stream like selling data
d) put on banners to request users to remove ad blocker and support the site
e) ask for donations
f) anti-adblock

Based on the growth rate of ad block uses we already know a) is not an option.
No explanation needed but we know b) is not going to work
Just like you I dont like c) either
d) and e) have already been tried for 7 years and failed

This is not a TTC specific problem but the internet as a whole. More and more sites are choosing f) with no better choice. So if you have a better idea please do not just limit it to TTC. Share it with the whole internet and you can potentially have your name written in the history book as the savior of all publishers.

[Valve]

Can you reduce DB load with a Redis layer or are you strictly reliant on the DB for getting and storing up-to-date information?

[sirinsidiator]

I don't mean to discourage you, but 150-200 queries per second is next to nothing for a database server. Of course it highly depends on your actual queries, database scheme etc, but usually SQL servers should be able to handle 10k+ queries per second even on small virtual servers that go for like 5$ per month.

As for running a patreon, you can't really compare that to a PayPal donate button. Patreon is different in that you build a community around whatever you are doing and offer rewards to increase willingness of people to donate to your cause.
Take esologs.com for example. I'd say it's rather similar to TTC in a sense and they run a pretty successful patreon: https://www.patreon.com/warcraftlogs

[cyxui]

Originally Posted by sirinsidiator I don't mean to discourage you, but 150-200 queries per second is next to nothing for a database server. Of course it highly depends on your actual queries, database scheme etc, but usually SQL servers should be able to handle 10k+ queries per second even on small virtual servers that go for like 5$ per month. As for running a patreon, you can't really compare that to a PayPal donate button. Patreon is different in that you build a community around whatever you are doing and offer rewards to increase willingness of people to donate to your cause. Take esologs.com for example. I'd say it's rather similar to TTC in a sense and they run a pretty successful patreon: https://www.patreon.com/warcraftlogs

My bad. Should have used the most current data instead of something years old in the first place.

Its around 250 insert/s and 18342 index search/s, 38561 page lookups/s + 54.14 GB disk space used with large amount of pages unable to fit in memory.

[SainguinLibras]

I honestly think if you had just tried the Patreon route first, you would of got supporters and this would of went completely differently.

I'm not sure if you still have the community goodwill to go that route, but I'd really like to try one last time to persuade you.

There are better options than forcing ads and selling data.

It couldn't hurt to try it, ya know? Like what do ya have to lose? Some time setting up an account and putting a banner in your addon page?

[cyxui]

So heres what I am thinking. I can potentially get some first party affiliate style ads where the only components are one static image + a referral link. No 3rd party cookie or connection (unless you click on it ofc).

Those type of ads are cookie free tracker free beacon free. They will work even with your adblocker on and without changing any of your security settings.

Does that sound like a good enough solution to everyone?

[Dolgubon]

Originally Posted by cyxui 2. I failed to see why Patreon would work when Paypal donation button failed miserably hard. .

Even if it does not fully pay for it, I think a Patreon should be something to consider.For one, it's far more consistent than PayPal. Where most donations on PayPal are one time donations, Patreon is monthly. You won't be as dependent on random chance of people deciding to donate. Amount you get from Patreon per person is also probably gonna be more over time, because it's going to be a donation each month.
But the big thing is that one problem/theme with what you currently have is people thinking 'pfft this guy can't be losing money TTC is so big'
Well, Patreon can help there as well. Make a goal 'server costs are paid for, I can turn off ads' at x amount of money and suddenly, people can't as easily dismiss the claim of you losing money. You could also do another tier 'partjal server costs are paid for, anti Adblock is off'. Seeing the actual dollar amount it costs you may also prompt more people to donate.
If no one joins the Patreon? You still come out ahead, because now it's much harder for people to say you're losing money. You don't need to change anything, and if somehow it *does* pay for partial costs or full costs, well, then they win as well.


So even if it gets you $0 you still shut down quite a bit of the criticism, and gain in that sense. (I think you'll probably get some, but nowhere near enough for the entire costs. But some is better than none)

[DreamsUnderStars]

Patreon will work, it does so for many many modders as well. But if you scoff and hem and haw and don't try it, it won't.

Just don't get greedy with initial support amounts like some people do and you might be surprised.

There's been a few times where I've supported a modder and simply forgot to unsub from their patreon long after I stopped playing the game (ff14 being one)... so there's also the ADHD aspect of it lol.

Edit: I just looked at your site again, and the ads aren't *that* bad... the worst one was the popup wanting me to watch something. I find those more intrustive and annoying that the side banner and that big one at the top. My concern is sometimes ads can be hijacked and your site just turns into a host for malware and viruses - NOT saying you would do this willingly. Also I have issues with flickering/strobbing ads, I don't get seizures but they do give me migraines sometimes... if ads were just static pictures I wouldn't have problems with them at all.

[DreamsUnderStars]

Sure, but why not try patreon too? See which one is better. At least with patreon you don't have to deal with some potentially shady ad partner or offensive ad.

[cyxui]

Originally Posted by DreamsUnderStars Sure, but why not try patreon too? See which one is better. At least with patreon you don't have to deal with some potentially shady ad partner or offensive ad.

Feel like doesnt matter what I set people will find ways to flame and I am not super convinced this will work so probably going to defer it.

First party ad experiment is ready. No tracker no privacy invasion no security adjustment required.

[SainguinLibras]

Originally Posted by cyxui Feel like doesnt matter what I set people will find ways to flame and I am not super convinced this will work so probably going to defer it. First party ad experiment is ready. No tracker no privacy invasion no security adjustment required.

I think you're being a bit pessimistic.

One of the first messages I sent to my guild's discord today was:

"Big news with TTC! No more forced ads!"

and the reception was pretty positive and that sentiment has stuck all day. Everyone's happy to see the change. People are still a bit put off by how poorly the first attempt was done, but that's not a big deal if you don't do something like forced ads, etc again.

Try a Patreon. It can't hurt, and you have multiple people in this thread telling you they'd support the idea, and possibly you through Patreon. I probably would. I can't imagine how many people would be willing to give to help if you put a big banner on your addon page saying "hey I need help keeping our beloved addon alive, please support me on Patreon so I can continue working, etc etc".

I think part of the reason nobody knows you need help, is you're not saying it. There's no indication on your addon page, from what I just re-read, that you're having any kind of financial struggle maintaining the project.

I understand it's on your main site, but most people are gonna see the addon page first. That's your best shot at reaching people.

I really think it could work if ya just give it a chance.

Nobody is going to flame you for doing something we've been suggesting from the start.

EDIT: Even shut off my adblocker to show support. Now that I'm not worried about some crappy ad being a malware or something stealing my information, I'm gonna support the site. That's all it takes dude.

[cyxui]

Originally Posted by DreamsUnderStars Sure, but why not try patreon too? See which one is better. At least with patreon you don't have to deal with some potentially shady ad partner or offensive ad.

After couple weeks of attempt I have to say Patreon's API is just too awful to work with.

Firstly their documentation sux. Documentation only provide one sample payload with the most important piece missing and doesnt tell you what the payload might differ for different events.

Based on their documentation their trigger doesnt fire if user paused the pledge. Which means users can just create a pledge and then pause it before the payment is made. Patreon will still happily report that the user has pledged to the campaign.

Also they specifically mentioned that any fraud event will not trigger any trigger. I.E. you can just put in a fake card and the server will never know.

The way their API is designed right now is super developer unfriendly and requires too much manual labor. Unless people are ok with no perks I dont see myself working with that awful API/webhook until they made it better.

[sirinsidiator]

Originally Posted by cyxui After couple weeks of attempt I have to say Patreon's API is just too awful to work with. Firstly their documentation sux. Documentation only provide one sample payload with the most important piece missing and doesnt tell you what the payload might differ for different events. Based on their documentation their trigger doesnt fire if user paused the pledge. Which means users can just create a pledge and then pause it before the payment is made. Patreon will still happily report that the user has pledged to the campaign. Also they specifically mentioned that any fraud event will not trigger any trigger. I.E. you can just put in a fake card and the server will never know. The way their API is designed right now is super developer unfriendly and requires too much manual labor. Unless people are ok with no perks I dont see myself working with that awful API/webhook until they made it better.

I've seen worse... The last time I looked into their API it was relatively straight forward (I use this package as well as their wordpress plugin), but I have to admit I don't use events or webhooks directly and only retrieved data about patrons on demand.
I also don't think it's possible to create a pledge without paying. Last time I checked you will be charged immediately when you pledge to someone, even if it's the last day of a month (in which case the patron will get charged twice and may ask you for a refund). On the off chance that someone pledges to get a reward and then asks their bank for a refund (= chargeback fraud, which afaik gets their bank account banned from patreon if they do it too often) you could still run a cronjob to sync the status via the api to lock them out after a while.

[cyxui]

Originally Posted by sirinsidiator I've seen worse... The last time I looked into their API it was relatively straight forward (I use this package as well as their wordpress plugin), but I have to admit I don't use events or webhooks directly and only retrieved data about patrons on demand. I also don't think it's possible to create a pledge without paying. Last time I checked you will be charged immediately when you pledge to someone, even if it's the last day of a month (in which case the patron will get charged twice and may ask you for a refund). On the off chance that someone pledges to get a reward and then asks their bank for a refund (= chargeback fraud, which afaik gets their bank account banned from patreon if they do it too often) you could still run a cronjob to sync the status via the api to lock them out after a while.

My problem is that they only provided the API for the happy path and 0 protection for exploits.

Couple red flags I see are

https://support.patreon.com/hc/en-us...46-Patreon-API
"As of June 22nd, 2020, we no longer provide Patreon developer support for our API due to resource constraints. Endpoints will continue to function as normal, and you can also find peer-to-peer resources in our Tech and Dev channel on Discord."

"Unfortunately, at this time, we do not offer a separate testing/sandbox API."

"Fires when a user stops pledging or the pledge is cancelled altogether. Does not fire for pledge pausing, as the pledge still exists."

and then

"APIv2 is still in beta, and while the scopes and endpoints are stable, the specific properties returned on the resources may change."

yea great so property might even change within the same API version. Why bother versioning it after all. Best part is that v1 is deprecating and V2 is not even stable.

I initially thought Paypal's API was bad enough but Patreon is just another level lol

[drkm]

sounds good 👍

If patreon is completely optional im not sure why anyone would flame you for using it?

[Baertram]

Another way to get help would be adding info to the client e.g. Just a text line with the patreon link.
Or add the link to LibAddonMenu settings of TTC as a new submenu "Support TTC server". As it is closed Noone would be disturbed. And if you open it let it show a description control and a button that opens the website of patreon, or your website where one is able to see the info and patreon link.
I bet this would reach a lot supporters, just don't make it a disturbing pop-up or anything like this.

[F0xN7]

Originally Posted by Baertram Another way to get help would be adding info to the client e.g. Just a text line with the patreon link. Or add the link to LibAddonMenu settings of TTC as a new submenu "Support TTC server". As it is closed Noone would be disturbed. And if you open it let it show a description control and a button that opens the website of patreon, or your website where one is able to see the info and patreon link. I bet this would reach a lot supporters, just don't make it a disturbing pop-up or anything like this.

+1

Patreon should work with all these tips. It worth the try. You might be surprised.
Also maybe find a cheaper provider for your vps? i don't know. You probably already did that.

[AddonAddict]

The fact is, there's people who can and will happily donate, and there's people who can't or simply won't.

The question is--how much money is needed? Well, who knows, as it's all obscured for anyone but the author to see. I would suggest they set up a monthly goal to cover expenses, then prominently display that figure on the TTP website. For every dollar that is donated, a dollar gets subtracted from that amount, and the displayed figure updated in [near] real-time. If the monthly goal is met, then the service remains online, and any additional funds goes towards the following month(s). However, if the goal isn't met, then the service goes offline until the appropriate funds are raised.

This would seem to be fair to both the author and the users, would it not? Actions in the dark can appear to be sinister in nature. This can be rectified by putting everything out in the open so people can see what is needed, when it's needed, and how their donations are actually helping the site.